Transcript

speaker-1 (00:00)
it's on the scientists to communicate with the public and not the public to learn how to speak science.

That's why kids, you know, are excited about seeing a volcano, you know, it's it's the spark of it. So how do we bring that back?

you develop these safety pathways and eventually they can become stronger than the fear.

what we want is a scientifically literate society,

when they go to their physician and ask a question, they feel like they can.

Here's how it might cost more money if we don't fix it.

we're enabling students to be mobile. you go to a different country. You learn a different country's system.

I think is very important to widen the circle of who is a scientist, because think anybody could be,

just because you have high stress susceptibility.

doesn't mean that your resiliency is super low

this enhances employability and enhances these very particular soft skills

just letting people know that it's normal experience that you're to be uncomfortable for a bit, but you'll come out more resilient in the end.

speaker-0 (00:58)
Dan Pace here from Genuine Technologies with another Getting Started episode, exploring some things that happen in your brain while getting started with new things today. So really excited for this. I'm also excited to be joined by a longtime friend of mine. Catch up with you from going back to the undergrad days with Dr. Kristin Anderson. Coming from Ireland at the University of Galway. So got a nice big five hour gap between us

Now Kristin has some experience getting started with a few new things over her career. She's gotten several published peer-reviewed papers which I think will definitely dig into a little bit on this episode. I've done lobbying for funding research in the sciences in DC. Some work in Ireland as well with their national food safety programs. Along with new newly lots of work in education where you're now working with the Erasmus program for your university.

So I want to start with going back to maybe when you were doing your PhD, your doctorate, your research, things like that. Did you expect your career path in neuroscience to have gone through so many different twists and turns the way it has? Or was this more planned, the way your career has gone?

speaker-1 (02:01)
Well, first, thank you for having me. So, no, my career has taken so many turns. And as you said, I have really started over so many times. Every time I switched careers, I moved once even moving to a whole new continent and country. And a lot of it has been just because of events that occurred in my life where I had to make a switch and change to a new career. So I had to learn a lot about

what skills did you gain in schooling and in different careers and through experiences that could be applied to a new role and really grow in how can I be resilient through all of these changes? That can be really overwhelming at times. So as you said, yeah, I never imagined I thought I would be in lab forever. So I never imagined that I would be switching into various roles, whether it be in politics or in helping develop international strategies.

speaker-0 (02:56)
Yeah, I definitely agree with the whole getting started thing. I was actually going to ask, know, did feel like getting something started new each and every time or was it kind of a continuation of, know, I'm still doing neuroscience at the core of it, but I'm still in science maybe at the core of it, but just in different ways. Sounds like you really had a whole new spin of things several times over. But definitely want to dig into the politics part because that's definitely one of the furthest reaches from like, you know, on the one side doing the research to now you just got to maybe talk about it and show the results, but you don't get to do anything hands on for the most part.

How was that foray switch from the lab to being in front of people shaking hands where you're not in the lab to say the least?

speaker-1 (03:31)
It's funny using scientific method of the ability to read literature, talk about things, be very complex things based in huge amounts of data, but it is about how you convey it, which is what scientists do every day. They take huge amounts of experiments and they have to distill it into a paper, into an abstract. So you have to know what are the pertinent things you need to tell somebody.

And that's really similar to politics. It's just a different language. So I feel like a lot of times you can use the same skills. You just have to learn the language of now policy. So, but it's a lot of the same skills as, you know, trying to figure out what does the literature say about a particular problem? What are the evidence-based ways to solve or address a particular issue? And then how do you take all of that, you know, vast literature?

and make it into a one pager for policy. So it really just comes down to your ability to take a lot of information and distill it down to what's important. And I think the critical step that's different, where in a lot of science publications, you're showing what you did. And there's a part where you're talking about what the next steps are. And science is always about the next thing. But a lot of science communication is just showing the results that have been done. And that's

works well for that mode of communication. But policy is a lot of what's the action from this? We might not necessarily care about all of the research that went behind it. Great, it happened. We know there was, know, vast amounts of data and really smart people, you know, working on this that are really good at what they do. But we want to know what you take from this and what you do with it. So it's just another, in that sense, as you said, it's another step. So it's not completely different. It's just

talking about it, kind of translating it into a different language and then saying, well, what can we do about this? And a lot of the policy, think the policy world is the real world where there's multiple things happening at one time. And so it's very different from the lab where you kind of have a controlled system and you can control all of the factors, for the most part in a particular experiment to get to a pretty good answer at something depending on what you're studying.

when in the real world you have to consider there's a lot of different factors. You're dealing with individual people, you're also dealing with society as a whole, you're dealing with the national, international politics, just what's happening in the world. So you're never gonna have that kind of clear-cut, perfect way of moving things forward. And I think that's an important lesson I had to learn, but it's how do we take that and say, what's the best step forward to get to maybe where we want to be or the next step?

speaker-0 (06:11)
Yeah, I mean, the two things I'm really hearing with that and, from the experience that I got from my undergrad in science is a, you you're writing that paper, it's like very lengthy, you're really digging into every little aspect of it, making it as long kind of as possible, reverses, now you just got to hit the talking points that really have the most weight to it and then, you know, carry with them. Once you talk to them, you don't have to carry those ideas with them later on into the, you know, sessions and, you know, when they actually make the moves to make the money move around.

I'm sure you jumped a bunch of things with the politics and was still on that topic. Any big successes you wanted to cover back when you were doing that or still are you still being active in politics on the.

speaker-1 (06:45)
Yeah, I still do quite a bit with it. I think in the US when I was working with that, so I did that as a side kind of throughout graduate school and my postdoc and I thought it was a really great experience and I would definitely all scientists say to do this because you actually become a better scientist by learning this type of science communication. And it also kind of reminds you of why you got into science because you're really talking about

what's the cool thing? What's the spark? You know, it's very easy to get caught in this blot isn't working again, and I have to troubleshoot this experiment. But then when you get to say, what is the actual outcome of this? And it's amazing to see what the outcome is. And it's that spark that gets I mean, that's why people get into science. That's why kids, you know, are excited about seeing a volcano, you know, it's it's the spark of it. So how do we bring that back? ⁓ And that really allows you to teaches you to communicate well. So I think it has a lot of

positive outcomes just as a scientist and on your work because you're able to communicate your science better and relate it back to what's the outcome rather than getting stuck in this. In terms of positives that came out of it, we had a lot of success in increasing the budget when I was there. So most science is funded by the government. So you have the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation in the US. mean, every year they get, know, Congress holds the power of the purse.

So they are able to allot money to those institutions every single year. So when I was in that role, we had a lot of success in every year getting an increase in funding. And a lot of that is due to scientists showing up on Capitol Hill talking about what they do. And again, it's that exciting. saying, here's a problem that exists in the world. Here's how it impacts people. Here's how it might cost more money if we don't fix it. Any way to grab that hook.

But then you really outline the problem and say, this is how I'm solving it. And this is what we're doing. This is only available because of funding from the government. So we had a lot of success in that. And I think it's really important. I think it's on the scientists to communicate with the public and not the public to learn how to speak science. So think it's really important that for all aspects of policy that scientists are able to communicate effectively what they're researching in a way that both policymakers

and the public can understand and can engage with.

speaker-0 (09:05)
I'm dealing with that challenge a bit with AI, because it's not necessarily people on running towards getting educated, So I definitely relate in some ways. Especially when you talk about excitement, that's something I'm digging more into nowadays. The excitement that I bring into my prospects and sales calls and things like that, it definitely shows and it reflects and it comes back to me often. I'm sure that's exactly true for the politics on Capitol Hill, what you're doing now with the

with working in Ireland. And actually, since I didn't really get to bring this up during your little bio, but I know you've done some work in the community trying to help opportunities in science be more available. that's, know, same sort of thing. And kids excited in science, so then they can pursue whether it's a role in science or just knowledge, know, finding knowledge and searching that up. What did you do with the community? I know you have a few projects that you've done just to find some more.

speaker-1 (09:54)
Yeah, so I've done a lot of science outreach and to me it's fun. And again, you're connecting back to why you got into science. And I always think my goal when I do any science outreach, you know, it's not too, it's great if somebody learns something, you know, fantastic. But the point is, is this excitement and that you feel like you can engage with science. You know, it's great if people go on to be a scientist. But what we want is a scientifically literate society, which doesn't mean everybody

needs to be scientist. It's just they feel they can engage with the science system. So whether this is when they go to their physician and ask a question, they feel like they can. Whether it's asking about, well, what's happening with the environment? And they feel like they can ask that question. And I mean, our bodies, our biology and chemistry and physics. So it's just that basic understanding of that.

So I've worked in a lot of different science outreach programs, whether it be in New York City, I worked with some fantastic organizations. ⁓ One is the BioBus, which brings a mobile lab to schools. I was the kind of events coordinator for BRAINY, which is a neuroscience organization in New York City, and we would host Brain Awareness Week. I've done art exhibits, and there's been a lot of different ways we approach the public and how to do it.

And a big thing I was always passionate about was making it accessible to everybody. I think historically a lot of science outreach was done by universities. And so it's only the people in those spheres that would show up or that would bring their kids with them. So it's kind of staying within academic circles and science is for everybody. But you need to learn how to communicate. Again, it's our job to learn how to communicate with different communities. So I've done a lot of different trainings and have run trainings on inclusive.

science outreach and how do you meet people where they are at, understand where they're coming from and maybe what their concerns are. You know, there's groups that have had really bad experiences with science and medicine. So how do you effectively reach out to them in order to let them experience the fun that science can bring, that they feel like they can engage with science. And so nothing is more exciting than.

You know, I have done a lot of science clubs and youth groups and you start off and all the kids walk in and they're from particular communities and they're just like, science, this isn't like, this isn't for me. I don't want to do this. Like, why are you here? But then by the end of it, you know, we let them run an experiment and we'd say, it's fine if you mess up. It's fine if you spill and they work through it and they get to see an outcome of something they did. And it's just like, wow, that was really cool.

to kind of see that turn. And so I think science outreach is very important and learning how to be inclusive and to kind of reach all groups, I think is very important to widen the circle of who is a scientist, because think anybody could be, but it's just a matter of making sure we can reach everybody.

speaker-0 (12:45)
It's all that everyone can be a scientist because right now with the... ⁓ I almost hate to bring these things to AI because I'm kind making these podcasts to get away from AI, but at the same time, AI is enabling everyone to become a developer of some sort so they can all make these computer systems that can just run and do things on their own. it's like, that's a huge power that if you're not going to access and realize it's such a huge, huge miss, huge loss, huge handicap actually going into the future. I want to shout out two of those organizations. You mentioned BioBus. That was a really cool... You introduced me to a people...

BioBuzz, really cool idea. Just to introduce it, they got a whole bus and just decked it out, just teched it out with all the science and labs, microscopes, all the equipment so they could just take it to you know, underprivileged area and do science there and show them what's here, give them those opportunities. And also GenSpace, that was also a neat organization to introduce to. A little less, I guess.

targeting underprivileged or harder access, still giving science more to the community to make it more accessible so they can do their own research. If they have some more ideas, it's like a community lab space. A co work for labs. think kind of sounded like. Yeah, I think.

speaker-1 (13:48)
Fantastic group, yeah.

The community is really important. I mentioned that I had an art exhibit that I worked in collaboration with ArtTec House and studying for neuroscience and we had an exhibit. It was called Life of a Neuron. It was one of the coolest projects I worked on so people could go and it's this immersive audio visual experience and it was based on a real neuron that was taken during surgery from a human. It was their prefrontal cortex.

neuron. And so we developed the story of life and showed you what happens in your brain in a very, we worked with fantastic artists that could make it come to life, all of the science. So we communicate what was happening in the brain. It was very jargony terms into something that they would make into these amazing exhibits. You see everything from birth to death. And I think being able to see that experience through the lens of a neuron in your brain.

It was really a way for people to not only feel something, because science is creative. Science is emotional at times. We're trying to solve things that afflict people. But I think it also gives people a sense of we're a lot more alike than we're different. And when we're in a very divisive world, but then we see ourselves are all responding the same way to something and we all have these same key experiences, it's also a way to bring that.

collective ⁓ community sense in, whether it be through community science or through letting everybody experience this, you know, kind of emotional thing about what our bodies can do. And it's amazing together. So I think there's a lot that can be said from engaging in any type of science outreach.

speaker-0 (15:24)
100 % definitely agree. Well, let's um, I'm about to you know, probably get into my own sort of excitement here One of the reasons I want to get you on is to talk about your research as well So kind of does that deal with the other brain? Especially those sort of those newer pathways that we do all kind of share then even though we don't feel like it sometimes And I do also want to thank you for giving me the you know the opportunity or just give me the Great excuse to go read some scientific literature for the first time in probably years. So I got to read your research with you and uh

Dr. Julie Miwa. was pretty neat to read her research as well. I did catch up with her thanks to your referral from you. She's done some awesome research. Gave me kind of, think, a high level idea of what you're doing, which I'm going to have you talk about as well. Yeah. So anyway, kind of the general audience, like how would you explain the high level idea of your research that was in the response to anxiety, stressors, like the pathway, the one of one of the pathways you studied to

how we adapt to those anxieties and experiences. I think it was the Lynx protein and what, the TRPV or something? Not that we want getting to the protein names. don't think we want to get to

speaker-1 (16:25)
Yeah, you described it really well. A big question that I was always interested in is why is it that a whole group of people can experience the exact same stressor? Some are fine. You know, you have a normal stress response. mean, stress is good. It motivates us. But we want it to be, you you go up and then you go down. So why is it that, you know, some people just have that normal response? They experience a stressor, they go through something stressful, but then they return to their baseline functioning.

but then others might go on to develop something like depression and anxiety. So what is different between those two individuals? How can we understand that in order to help those that develop something like anxiety and depression, but also to understand the greater concepts of stress susceptibility and importantly stress resiliency, because then we can find ways that we can target not just susceptibility, but resiliency pathways.

⁓ So that's the crux of what I studied. So yeah, as a grad student, I studied this from the genetics perspective. So is there something in our genes that might predispose us to being more stress-deceptive? And then when I was a postdoc, I studied this from a neural circuitry perspective. So is there something different about the way our brain talks to itself? So you have all these super high ways and connections in your brain. Is there a different way that...

brains communicate within itself between individuals that are susceptible and resilient? And then how can we harness the power of those understandings, as I said, to help those suffering with anxiety and depression, but also to understand the human power of resiliency, which is something I think everybody can harness no matter what you're doing in life, no matter where you're at, that concept of resiliency can be really important.

And so how do we understand that beyond the Bo's word of resiliency? What does it actually mean to be resilient in your brain? ⁓

speaker-0 (18:15)
So what, obviously you had multiple experiments, but maybe some of the most pivotal ones, I guess, for the research. Can you mention some of the procedure of that? What did you do and what did it kind of prove, or least support? Like you were using different types of stress, what were the conditions?

speaker-1 (18:30)
So as a graduate student from the genetic perspective, ⁓ part of my research was in rodent models, because we can do a lot of manipulations in the rodent model and different behavioral experiments. And then part of it was also in humans. So then how do we connect the findings that are being discovered in the rodent model to the human condition so we can have this pathway where we're discussing the results. So we would use knockout mice. So we can manipulate the genome of mice to

essentially remove a whole gene so we can see what happens to development, to behavior as a gene is missing. So I studied what was called the LYNX2 gene. So it's part of a family of LYNX genes. They are cholinergic modulators. So the cholinergic system is this widespread neurotransmitter system in your brain, ⁓ and it acts as a modulator. So it can kind of increase or decrease, and it has tons of functions it's involved in.

everything from emotional regulation to learning and memory to movement. What it's doing all depends on what part of the brain is being activated at that time. And it's a really cool system, I'm gonna say cool, but it has all these different types of receptors that can also do different things. So it gets very intricate, but it's a very important system because it can just modulate everything throughout the brain. And so what the Lynx protein does is it essentially modulates these receptors.

So it acts as a break. So when it's present, it could say, we need to kind of simmer this down a bit. And so when they were discovered, so my mentor, Dr. Julie Miwa discovered this family and a lot of the first studies were done on LYNX-1, which is involved in learning and memory. And it was known that LYNX-2, there was a study done before I joined in different laboratories that created the knockout mouse. So that was where we just removed the LYNX-2 gene.

it was found that these mice have higher anxiety-like behavior. So while we can't say a mouse has anxiety, I can't ask mouse, how are you feeling? But we can do different tests to kind of get at anxiety. And so we call it anxiety-like behavior. So for instance, a mice, if you think about evolutionary, they should feel more comfortable kind of in the dark because their predators come from above. So if they're out in the open, that's gonna be, our human minds would say, more anxiety producing.

but if they're in the dark. So we can run tests like, such as the light dark box. So if you put a mouse in a box, where do they go? So the Lynx 2 mice, for instance, they go into the dark a lot faster and they stay there a lot longer. When mice that have the Lynx 2 gene, know, they'll go in the dark and then they'll come out and they'll do this kind of normal exploring. So we can do a lot of these tests say, okay, well we think this is impacting, you know, the behaviors around anxiety.

So then I would run various experiences to see, what is actually happening in the brain? How are these interacting with the receptors? And that gets us at really the function. And so can we connect maybe how a particular receptor is working to cause that behavior? And that's when we can then start targeting that receptor, say, for an individual that has anxiety. And so then to connect this to humans, ⁓ we...

There's all these tests you can give to get at anxiety levels, whether you reach a clinical threshold. And I could test your DNA. We would collect saliva, we would isolate the links to gene, and we would sequence it. So that's the fancy word for just reading what the gene says. So just like reading a book, you can read DNA and it has the system where basically every three letters, if you're sticking with the analogy of reading, equals a word, and then all of these words formed together to make...

the functional protein. And so what we did was we said, do some humans have differences in the LYNX2 gene naturally? And then can we correlate that to any differences in their anxiety levels? And it turns out there was. So we found that there are humans that are naturally occurring mutations in their LYNX2 gene and that these individuals do have clinical levels of anxiety. So this is saying that the mechanisms that we're discovering in these links to knockout mice are likely happening in the human brain.

of these individuals. So this isn't an end all be all for everybody with anxiety. It's an extremely complex, multifactorial, but for some individuals, kind of a root cause could be a mutation in this gene. so further studies on the line could say, okay, we can have a targeted approach to treatment where we might target these receptors ⁓ along with a talk therapy to help people move forward quicker since we're getting at that biological root cause.

speaker-0 (23:00)
you can target the cause rather than just like the treatment, guess, with I guess traditional therapies or at least the accepted ones. Working to  new ones anyway. Yeah.

speaker-1 (23:08)
Yeah,

I therapy, it works really, really well. But if you think of even if you look at the diagnosis.

speaker-0 (23:13)
The more tools you have in your arsenal is always the better, right?

speaker-1 (23:16)
It's always a better. I mean, if you look at depression, like it's, you have to have five of, you know, forget the exact numbers. haven't been in this a while, but say it's five out of 25 symptoms. So if you imagine you have a room full of people all diagnosed, they could all have different symptoms, you know, because you have to have five. So, you know, the more targeted you can get, as you said, your arsenal becomes a lot easier. So otherwise we're just catching this umbrella and then trying to find what works. But if you can get more,

targeted, which is what a lot of cancer research has done. You know, it used to be breast cancer, but now you can target it down to different types of receptors. And so I view it's just this more personalized medicine and it takes a long time to get there and the brain is very difficult to study because it's there. But you how you got to keep moving the step forward to understanding.

speaker-0 (23:58)
essentially.

it kind of looks like small steps because you talk about this one little, you know, synapse, one little protein, one little strand of DNA versus still got the whole other thing of what's going on.

Yeah, so the overall effect then, one of those practical aspects of it, can we use that protein, use the LYNX when it's normally functioning, I suppose, to help us better adapt to when we can kind of feel like it's on, or guess that anxiety is high, what is the, from your research and what you've done, what is the next best move you should do when everything's functioning normally?

when you feel that high anxiety. think you actually called it adaptability, but you eventually mentioned in some of the research, fear extinction. It's almost like a, know, acquired taste in a way. Like this thing starts off like being rough or, you know, like it, it's kind of hard, but like after a while it's like, this is nice. And so I think one of these tests, actually use capsaicin. So like they would start to feel the spice and wouldn't like it, over time what subsides and they end up liking it kind of.

That'd be the fear extinction. that played into this whole thing as well. So it's like a loaded question, but like, what's the practical ways that we can use high anxiety to, I guess, get rid of fears.

speaker-1 (25:10)
Well, yeah, that's a very different, they don't exactly correlate those. But I think of more of my postdoc research and neural circuitry for this step about what's the practical side. And I think there's a lot of power in the outcomes from that. So we were studying generally stress, susceptibility and resiliency. And so I was studying this from a social aspect. we have bullying models that we can use. And so why is it that some

mice after they go through a bullying experience retreat and others are are fine. They know, they maintain their their social interactions. And the discoveries that were made and this is not just my research is across the field. It's this idea that susceptibility and resiliency are not two sides of a coin. They're two distinct pathways. And I think there's a lot of power in that just because you have high stress susceptibility.

doesn't mean that your resiliency is super low because they're not two sides of coin, they're separate mechanisms. So we discovered that they are different pathways within the brain. It's not that one goes up and one goes down in this system. Now they do interact with each other and they involve a lot of the same brain regions, of course, but there's a lot of power in the fact that you can develop your resiliency even if you're in high susceptibility because it is a very unique pathway.

And our brains are plastic, and this is the neuroscience term for meaning they can change. So of course, we're a lot more plastic when we're young. Think about how quick kids learn a language. That's because our brains are very plastic and they do kind of harden up over time. That's very quickly a term for it. But it is harder to learn language, you know, as an adult. But it's not that it's impossible. And I think the important and really empowering thing out of that research is

you can build your resiliency no matter where you are, whether you have high stress susceptibility or low, and whether you have really active stress systems going on all the time. mean, it could be that the amygdala is a big part of the brain that's involved in kind of stress and anxiety. It could be that your amygdala is sending out signals to your whole brain and it's just screaming constantly. But what's kind of a really cool part is that you can still develop resiliency even if it's doing that.

and it can maintain that. So you have the power to build that. And the resiliency can eventually hamper that down, but nobody's unable to do that. And that could be through seeing a physician, through talk therapy, but it could also be through things of yoga, meditation, exercise, doing something that you really like is a way to build that resiliency pathways. And I've always found kind of power.

in that, I could be going through something really stressful, but it's like, okay, I can actually turn on my resiliency circuits. And it could be by exercising, you know, something and it doesn't get rid of, you know, that anxiety and depression, but I know that I'm harnessing that resiliency, which can help you. So it may feel, you know, an individual could feel like they're really lost, but I think you do have you have power to increase your resiliency even in that. And our brains can do that, which is amazing. It's not that you have to have one or the other.

So think that's a really powerful outcome of that research.

speaker-0 (28:19)
Yeah, so you can continue forward even if you have some anxiety, you know effects going on I mean that I'm you're gonna have those anxieties. It just happens. It's kind of part of life in a way the You know gets you out of trouble too. Sometimes too. So you should have it don't want to but you can't like not important. Yeah That's interesting. So the fear extinction in the in the documents is more about the resiliency or is that more to? lowering anxiety

speaker-1 (28:34)
Yeah

⁓ Fear extinction is a model, it's not a perfect thing for more PTSD. So think of PTSD as you experience, it could be say a loud noise in a very stressful situation. And so then even when you're in a safe situation and you hear that noise, you have that same stress and anxiety response as if you're in that original stressful situation. So, and then fear extinction is when you have exposure

to that loud sound continually in a safe environment, eventually you don't have that same response to that really stressful response to there. So fear extinction refers to that process of you keep hearing that sound that initially caused all of this fear, but eventually you can extinguish it where you can hear it without having that stressful response. And there are kind of unique pathways within the brain to develop fear extinction. And again, that's kind of like structures.

stress, susceptibility, and resiliency where it's not two sides of a coin, they're different pathways. So while you always have, you always have that connection of like sound, fear, no matter what it is, but you develop these safety pathways ⁓ and eventually they can become stronger than the fear. And so then, and when you hear the sound, your safety pathways are what are activated and you no longer have that same stressful response. And then of course, you know, it can come back because that fear is always there.

and they connect to each other. But that's like a powerful way. So our exposure therapies that take place. And so fear of extinction is really a model of that where we can study what happens in the brain when somebody hears amusing sound, but it could be anything, this trigger over and over again in a safe environment. Can we essentially train our brain and then particularly what pathways are coming online during that that maybe can be targeted to help individuals coping with something like post-traumatic stress syndrome.

So in this case, I'd say you always would have to connect it to an exposure therapy, but are there ways that we can harness the power of neuroscience to maybe target those safety pathways or quiet those fear pathways to help the individual along their healing journey faster?

speaker-0 (30:42)
And did that kind of share some of the same like, I guess, strategies you could maybe say for the resiliency or raising resiliency, in your research? Like you're saying kind of do an exposure, then take yourself away from it for a little bit and come back like kind of that on off. That was how you were growing resiliency or at least saw it grow.

speaker-1 (31:00)
There are connections. So there are learning pathways involved within both. So your brain has to undergo classical learning. So this is where the pathways become stronger over time. For instance, when you're learning those safety mechanisms that loud sound does not equal danger, you are learning. And there is some unlearning that takes place as well in the really fearful one. I'd say for resiliency.

It is going through some of these strengthening pathways. So you're strengthening that resiliency pathway over time, which is going through a lot of the same mechanisms as you would be when you're kind of learning this safety mechanism. I think the key difference is that these two behaviors, whether it be stress resiliency in general versus a very particular trauma. So if you think of it as a sound, you have to bring in the parts of the brain that are involved in sound memory.

So there are different pathways that are taking place for something like a fear extinction and a resiliency, but the neural processes that take place are very similar. It's just happening in different parts of the brain, possibly with different types of circuits, so different flavors, different chemicals involved, but the core kind of processes is you are really, forging new pathways in your brain to do something. And our brains are powerful enough to do that. not stuck.

in the same way. I think in both of those, are really finding a way to really get down into trenches and build something new. So I always give the example, think Inside Out is actually a very good example of the cartoon movie of neuroscience and what can happen in the brain. So just like in Inside Out, all the characters are constantly talking to each other. mean, our brain is constant, all the different areas are talking to itself. And you can see how they work together and they need each other to

bring forward an outcome. And sometimes they can do one path and it leads to one way, but you can get to the same a different way. But they do, they pop up memories, they bring them down in our brain. It is doing that as we experience the world. It forges kind of these different pathways and things to focus on. So it is a lot of what we are, what we're focusing on does make a difference. And I say that with that, not everybody has the ability to focus on something like resiliency.

I mean, there are a lot of socioeconomic factors involved in access to care and other things involved in this, but that power is very similar in both.

speaker-0 (33:19)
Yeah, that's pretty neat. So you can definitely train your system. The biggest thing to this. It's not a. Yeah, that's pretty great. I'm definitely doing a lot of that. Know a lot of entrepreneurs are doing that because we're constantly learning a ton of things. We're constantly putting ourselves into high anxiety situations, to say the least. over time, yeah, they just start to get a little less anxiety You know, my fifth podcast, and I can tell you the emotions I had my first one are just much less. They're still around for this one, but there's much less and much more.

speaker-1 (33:24)
Thanks.

speaker-0 (33:46)
Dealable, guess, to deal withable now.

speaker-1 (33:48)
Yeah, you learn you're safe. It's part of we have our prefrontal cortex has two regions to it. And they're essentially diametrically opposed. One region kind of reinforces your brain to be anxious, but the other one is just like chill out man. And so you can actually strengthen that chill out man one through these processes. So you still have the anxiety, but your prefrontal cortex and that part of it is able to really say, okay, this is this is anxiety, but like we've done this before.

will be okay and it talks to itself through this process and then you're able to show up a little bit better each time and learn through it.

speaker-0 (34:24)
So just do tough things,

speaker-1 (34:26)
That's it. Yeah.

speaker-0 (34:27)
Well, so obviously now you're a little more working in education with the Erasmus program. Has this been playing? Have you been able to use your research to help out students that may be experiencing their own stress? Has that been able to have a nice parallel?

speaker-1 (34:41)
I mean, I'm not certified to be doing that, but we do run some sessions. And this is me talking as an individual, not on behalf of the university, but I do run some sessions where we just do a very brief talking about what it means to go into a new environment, because we're enabling students to be mobile. We think that's a very important part of their education is you go to a different country. You learn a different country's system.

You learn about different ways of doing things and you particularly in Erasmus upholding certain European values and really learning about European education systems, European democracy and inclusion, diversity, support. And it's really important that we think that students get this experience. There's, I still think the most intense mode of learning is traveling and being thrown into a different, seeing something done differently than you've known is really.

eye-opening and expanding and humbles you, but also you learn a lot about the human experience. And so that's a big, that's what the Erasmus program is. It's to enable people to be mobile and to do some of their studies somewhere else to gain something. And so it's just, so what we run these sessions, it's a lot of times students haven't spent this long, you know, away from home, outside the country in different places. So we do run a session where we introduce things.

of, you we don't say the terms resiliency, but, you know, we talk about what you might be feeling, you know, when you go somewhere different and you experience that intense loneliness, you know, the first time or the first time you say something wrong. And I always give a joke about what, when I moved to Ireland, you know, English is the main, you know, Irish and English are spoken here. But the English is still different than English in the U.S. And I always give the example of, it was one of my, I was in, you know, a group meeting and I,

just asked where the garbage can was and everybody started hysterically laughing at me because you wouldn't say garbage can here, it's just the bin. And in my head, my stress must have spiked. I went through this like 30 seconds of, my God, I don't belong here. What am I doing? I can't know this. And then it was like, okay, I passed it in there. And so we talk about these experiences and while not going into what's happening in the brain, it's saying it's normal.

you know, to feel these things. It's normal to be more stressed at different sounds and different foods, which is different ways of doing things. And for the most part, it will pass. And it's this idea of just letting people know that it's normal experience that you're to be uncomfortable for a bit, but you'll come out more resilient in the end. And then, of course, highlighting that if you're not, that's also OK. And then there's resources to help you to help you through it. So I think there is a little bit of it in there.

and then helping students on that side. And then the other side of it is using my experience just with data. How can I use all of the data that's just collected on the program to use evidence to solve problems, to move the program forward in a more effective way by having a data-driven approach? And so I think any company, regardless of what you're doing, can also harness that side of science, which is saying rather than us thinking, this is a problem that can work, what does the data say?

And then that just leads to more efficiency and more effective outcomes for all stakeholders involved, whether it be the workers or the people involved in the services.

speaker-0 (38:00)
Even though you're not necessarily talking about the science as much and I feel like that's going to help you with the confidence of what you're talking about because you could have that level. You could go to that extent with it. Not that you don't need to. So it's like, know, you know, you know that, you know, you know what you're talking about in a way.

Since you mentioned that garbage can thing, I bet you're probably the only one that actually remembers that story that that actually even happened. You know what I mean? Yeah. So this is huge to you, but everyone else is just like, okay, we're going to go on with the rest of our day now.

speaker-1 (38:23)
think that's a really important takeaway.

And I think that's a really important outcome. that things are your brain remembers that I mean, we're biologically wired to remember these things, you know, when cortisol comes online, our learning pathways to an extent now give too much cortisol, your learning goes down. But that, that spike in cortisol is meant to help you learn faster and to make that memory more salient. And you think of evolutionary that makes sense. If you eat a berry that makes you sick.

You can't keep eating that berry. You need to learn really fast that this berry is making you sick. So that spike in cortisol helps you to learn more effectively. So you think about you're going for something embarrassing. Evolutionary wise, your body sees that as the same as walking in front of a lion or, you know, eating a poisoned berry. So it's meant to be like, we need to learn this really fast, you know, in order to

speaker-0 (39:19)
That's really interesting actually. one of the, again I hate to hate bring the stuff AI but need to sometimes. One of the things that AI is trying to do is like how can you have it learn something quicker sometimes when it's a really big miss versus the small incremental learns that it's currently you doing. And yeah maybe some sort of AI cortisol system might be what's needed.

speaker-1 (39:36)
So you need that sweet spot. If you get too much, it hinders your ability to learn. what's that sweet spot of stress that we all need in order to kind of be at the best performance level? Too much or too little is not good. And that really goes back to the cholinergic system. It works on this curve. So it's the Goldilocks. You have to have just the right amount. You can't have too much.

speaker-0 (40:00)
Does that amount move sometimes? Or like amongst a person's life can be trained to move or be-

speaker-1 (40:06)
It

can, yeah, definitely. It can kind of shift based off of life, you know, experiences and different exposures. For instance, I mean, the cholinergic system is involving nicotinic receptors. So those that are smoking cigarettes, ⁓ introducing to nicotine, you change the composition and the way your receptors respond. So you are shifting things, you know, in that sense, but it can just be experience. Our brains are super, the brain is an amazing organ.

constantly adapting to what's happening. it's increasing receptors, decreasing. So well, for the most part, it's kind of steady, especially when we're an adult, our brain's trying to protect itself. Things can shift based off of outside.

speaker-0 (40:46)
Oh, yeah, last question I want to ask you then you want to get back to you know educating young minds and they want you to work during today any cool success stories or from either yourself from you when you're doing traveling or from the school of the Erasmus program, you know, I know it's to be generalized in some some regard but

I'm just sure there's a lot of cool experiences that they've either had as some students you've worked with or even you yourself. I know you've done some traveling yourself. I think you took advantage of some programs that are similar to this in the states. So yeah, just kind of talk to the benefits, first-hand experience, benefits of that type of program mobility in school.

speaker-1 (41:23)
Yeah, I think it goes to wonder how statistics and data, how this enhances employability and enhances these very particular skills. I think the more important things that this can bring is those soft skills that we would say. So it is, think, developing resiliency. It's developing communication, intercultural communication. And we live in an international world.

And so it's the ability to communicate and talk with other people.

speaker-0 (41:52)
Are

there any programs or activities that you or your students did that really displayed that in real life time?

speaker-1 (42:01)
There are some really cool kind of collaborations that take place that will look at a very particular issue. So things like the media and democracy, you so you have this, this big overarching problem, you know, that we have, how do we bring together people of different disciplines to kind of talk through a problem or how do we see something that maybe has happened in the past and view it through different lenses to bring about a new understanding or a new change? Cause I think

talking through with different people that have a different perspective of you and that's done in science but particularly especially when you're working with people in different countries you all have a different perspective everybody's had a different upbringing so everybody then brings something different to the table and so there's so many different kind of success stories particularly for programs where people are targeting one issue so whether it be sustainability in the workplace you know what are concrete ways we can address it or

How do we enhance digitalization of processes that there that we can work together for by combining various expertise? And I think it's just really powerful for the individual and for companies and developing to get these different kind of diverse thoughts at the table. Just in my mind kind of makes you more resilient and a person to kind of see things for different people.

speaker-0 (43:18)
Actually, my last guest kind of said sort of some similar like getting new board members onto your company. You want to have these different thoughts even if they're kind of, you know, trying to the way you operate. That actually makes your company resilient because you have this different viewpoint. So that's kind of what happens. These Erasmus programs throughout the EU will join together. Like the University of Galway has a bunch of people from a bunch of different schools that will kind of come into little circle conversation about what they're working on and get to share their viewpoints.

speaker-1 (43:47)
The crux of it is students are mobile, so they can take a semester or a year abroad, and then the courses they take count towards their degree at home. So it's kind of an exchange of students, so within the same program, two will go out, kind of two can go in. They'll be immersed in the school in there, and that's the main form, so it's really a study abroad. But there are a lot of new programs that come out of it, such as blended programs.

And these can be like a short-term module. And these are ones that are really about a particular issue. And so they have really cool course names. I mean, there's been some even on like neuroscience and video games that I wanted to participate in that are really cool. a lot of these are the short-term ones are really interdisciplinary. And they're really saying, what are some issues and what are ways we can bring together interdisciplinary folks together to address it?

you know, in a different way. And I think that helps everybody because it's very easy to get stuck, you know, in your own way of thinking. And we all have different strengths. So like your kind of boardroom example, you know, if you have five really good people, you know, in the boardroom and they all know how to handle these 10 scenarios really well between them. But then all of sudden, this 11th scenario comes in having that diverse perspective, you know, there maybe that's a person who knows how to deal with that situation better. You know, it only makes things

stronger and then you also, you know, said, helping to learn those soft skills, like communication. think really powerful for everybody.

speaker-0 (45:15)
Yeah, communication definitely in different areas, different, you know, strange lands and such, because I think I said that is high anxiety. And, know, when you have that high anxiety, you're going to hide under the rock. Are you going to go into that black box? Are you not going to talk and say the things that you need to say to share your opinion that makes the group resilient. Well, do you want to thank you again for your time? This was awesome. I learned a lot, definitely some things I can definitely put into practice, I think, too. And

I now know that I know a little more about my own anxieties and go to my own resilience. So thank you for sharing your knowledge, sharing that research. Cause I know it wasn't easy to do. A lot of hours must have been in that lab. of late nights reading those papers after reading them too. So thanks for getting started with what you've been doing, Kristin. Thanks for coming on here.

speaker-1 (46:01)
Oh, thanks for having me. Just remember when you're stressed, just say, hey, resiliency, come online, Yeah, it's just something you can constantly strengthen.

speaker-0 (46:09)
Definitely train my resilience.

speaker-1 (46:11)
Yeah, well, so thanks for having me.